Whether on the street or in the bar: sexism is still far too often part of our everyday lives. We spoke to Germany’s best-known gender expert, the sociologist Paula-Irene Villa Braslavsky, about how this could change.
BRIGITTE: Prof. Dr. Villa Braslavskyhave you also asked yourself after the Rammstein scandal: Have we still not moved on?
VILLA BRASLAVSKY: No I haven’t. If, as recently, there is a lot of talk about sexism, assault and inappropriate sexualization, in my opinion this suggests that the attention directed towards such incidents is definitely changing, also due to #MeToo: from an open but very well guarded place Secret, a “That’s just how it is,” becomes a “That’s not okay.”
That sounds like good news.
But I also share some frustration because so much is coming to light that shows how naturally femininity is still linked to being at risk and in need of protection: watch your drink, don’t choose your heels too high, or your neckline too deep …
And if something happens, they immediately say: “She shouldn’t wear something so short!”
No matter what clothes they wear, it must always be possible for every person at every moment to say: No, I don’t want that, I don’t want that anymore, I don’t want that. No clothing, no body justifies violence, assault, humiliation.
You are the mother of a 16-year-old daughter, have you talked to her about “Row Zero“talked?
With her and her classmates, I was recently a guest at her school – actually on a different topic. But then it was a huge topic. These young women couldn’t understand at all that concerts weren’t canceled and that female fans continued to walk around with band T-shirts despite everything. They found it really bad and were extremely outraged.
Rightly so, right?
I still wonder whether their conviction makes them see their own reality comprehensively.
What do you mean?
Whether they would recognize, condemn and not get involved in other forms of sexism and sexual assault in their everyday lives if they were involved themselves. Their indignation had a strong pointing finger, it was “them there”.
What shapes are you thinking of?
By that I mean all these shades and nuances between flirting, hitting on, having sex in all variations… It’s a huge gray area. And at the end, for example, there’s a “Wow, I don’t know exactly what happened then, I drank too much…” Because on the one hand, it’s all about trying something, getting involved in something and continuing to explore the limits – what makes it special makes it difficult to recognize and define your own boundaries. And on the other hand, there is the requirement to always know exactly in advance and to be confident.
Why are we having such a hard time with this?
It’s about taking my needs – what do I want, what do I feel like – at least as seriously as those of the other person, and by that I mean men in particular. But a young woman today still grows up structurally with the message: HIS needs are more important than mine.
And if I don’t satisfy them, I’m considered uptight or wrong. Why do these role models continue to have such a strong impact?
That’s the $30 million question. Historically, being a woman meant being a “trophy of” for a long time. Marriage markets have changed significantly, but women and people who read as feminine are still heavily evaluated based on whether they would be this good trophy – for men who are particularly “masculine”, i.e. ambitious and successful, financially strong, publicly present…
What is considered feminine has certainly changed over time.
Certainly, and interestingly, women today sometimes behave in an almost hypermasculine manner – not only, but also in the nightlife: going out to extremes, drinking, bullying, fighting, puking, fucking. Motto: I take what I can. At first glance, this seems very free, very self-determined, but it has a fatal downside: “No, I don’t feel like that right now” unfortunately doesn’t fit into the picture at all – just like it doesn’t with men.
It’s hard to get out of this role.
In addition, female physicality and sexuality are unfortunately very much associated with shame and dirt in our society. Education, for example, is almost always associated with fear: fear of pregnancy, fear of violence, fear of attacks…
Don’t recent incidents show that this fear is well founded?
I think it’s the wrong way to say: We have to protect these poor young women, they are so weak. No, we have to empower them! Show and reassure you that sexuality can be playful, pleasurable and self-confident. That your own needs count. But we haven’t talked enough about boys and men until now.
Why?
It shouldn’t be the primary task of us mothers, sisters, daughters, aunts or friends to figure out how best to navigate through everyday life and nightlife. To think about what codes we could say at the counter so we could safely get into a taxi home. Or learning how to recognize knockout drops in a drink. Whether Row Zero, #MeToo at universities or catcalling on the street:One in three women has experienced some form of sexual violence and assault. It is men and boys who behave incorrectly, who are responsible – and who have to rethink. This is exactly what we should constantly confront them with.
Do you do this to your 22 year old son?
It actually starts with our sons. We can tell you: No, you don’t have to be the great stallion, nor the cool checker who always knows where to go. You don’t have to do anything. In addition to making sure that what you do works for everyone involved at all times. And if you’re ever unsure whether it’s right, you can and should ask: Hey, is everything okay?
That would take a lot of responsibility away from women.
And take the pressure and stress away from the boys, while at the same time taking their responsibilities seriously. Because they too believe that they have to conform to certain standards, that they have to be strong and tough. They also go beyond their limits – and those of others. A lot would be gained if we understood that we can only bring peace to the public war zone together. And that men have to contribute much more to this than before.
But there still seems to be a long way to go until this peace is reached.
I think we often look for a solution too quickly. Because we want to spare our daughters what we may have experienced ourselves – but we overlook the fact that each generation has to have its own discussions. And when I see how lively this is happening on the internet, for example, among digital activists, I think it’s great. If we really listen to these voices that are speaking out and engage with the diversity of their perspectives, we could all learn a lot. Maybe we don’t need to find a quick solution at all. But we have to want to look for them: together.