Generation We – that is the name of our new major BRIGITTE study, and under this motto we spoke to Iris Berben, Anke Engelke and Aminata Belli: about what made them strong as women in life, what unites them – and sometimes also irritates them.
“As a young girl I thought: Oh, these women, these worlds, these options exist!” – Anke Engelke
ANKE ENGELKE: Congratulations! You’re turning 70.
BRIGITTE: Thank you. We will accept your congratulations on your behalf.
IRIS BERBEN: Still younger than me! I was born in 1950, and for a long time BRIGITTE was the only women’s magazine that existed, or at least that’s how I remember it.
ANGELKE: My first experience with BRIGITTE was that our neighbor had a subscription to the magazine, and it was always great when she came to us with it. As a young girl, I thought: Oh, these women, these worlds, these options exist!
AMINATA BELLI: “Adult” is a word that immediately comes to mind. And self-confident.
How do you three celebrate your birthdays? Big and lavish or small and quiet?
ENGELKE: As a child I liked it to be really loud, lots of friends had to come, I wanted a real party. The older I get, the more I enjoy reserving the day for myself, getting out for a bit.
BERBEN: For me it was the other way round: I spent a large part of my childhood and youth in boarding schools, and my birthday only became meaningful to me when I was able to plan it myself. Claiming this day for myself is just as nice as noticing how many people are thinking of me. I always thought of something special for my milestone birthdays, invited people who are important to me to nice places. But under one condition: no press, no social media, everyone has to promise me that beforehand. I want to stay on safe ground.
BELLI: I have a rule: my home is my home. On my 30th birthday two years ago, a lot of photos were taken, but I couldn’t find any of them on the Internet. Luckily, I could rely on that.
You belong to three different generations. Ms. Berben, how do you view younger women today?
BERBEN: First of all: there is no such thing as THE women. Women’s lives and female characters are simply too different. When I look at my industry, I see a very strong, self-confident and self-determined group of young actresses who will go their own way, I’m sure of that. What irritates me sometimes is when young women say, I just want to be provided for and have my credit card glowing. I took a different path, never married, I didn’t want to be financially dependent on anyone. Then I ask myself: what did we take to the streets for in the 60s?
Do you also wonder what could be behind this need for care?
BERBEN: Yes, I think it has a lot to do with disorientation, with a great fear that many feel. We are currently experiencing war in our immediate vicinity, which has a direct impact on our everyday lives, the tensions in the Middle East, the shift to the right…!
BELLI: I think many things are taken for granted for younger women today because they no longer have to fight for them. But I know many who see and appreciate what women have achieved before us and who continue to fight for equal rights themselves.
In the last European elections, it was mainly young men who voted for right-wing populists. And they are calling on social media: women, back to the kitchen!
BELLI: I see it as some young men being irritated and unsettled by the self-confidence of many young women. I work a lot with younger people and I always find it amazing how firmly they set boundaries and how clearly (and with absolute justification!) they demand things. I wouldn’t have dared to do that when I was 20. This seems to give some people the impression that something could be taken away from them – not just by “the foreigners” but now also by “the women”.
BERBEN: Seldom has so much change taken place in such a short space of time, at such a speed, that we no longer have time to familiarize ourselves with the innovations, to live them. It is extremely overwhelming, and I often don’t know how we are supposed to manage it all. It is complicated and complex. But I am sure that there will always be people who will sit down at a table, talk to each other and look for these new ways. Like us here.
ENGELKE: If only we all had fewer problems saying: Oh, I’ve never thought about that. One of my favorite sentences. Or, even better: I don’t know. Or, not bad either: I think you’re right. How many people don’t say these sentences?
We are united by our ignorance and our inability to cope, but if we formulate this, then we are also united by our willingness to wait, endure and persevere.
BELLI: This is not only the case in politics, but also in our social lives. It often seems to me as if everyone sits in their own corner and stays there. We judge and condemn too quickly.
“I ask myself: What did we take to the streets for in the 60s?” – Iris Berben
In other areas, however, when it comes to issues such as equal rights and equality, people often wish for more speed.
BERBEN: I was always against the quota because I felt insulted that I was perceived through a quota and not through my performance. But at some point I also realized that there was little else that could change this imbalance. Unfortunately, the reality is still 70:30 rather than 50:50 in too many areas. Women still have to choose between family and job too often and have fewer options and opportunities.
BELLI: There are many reasons why we haven’t reached our goal yet, but it’s certainly not due to a lack of solidarity between women. We can support and love each other as much as we want, but the structures are lacking or poor…
BERBEN: …that doesn’t help much, you’re absolutely right. And we still have to turn the wheel a lot!
As celebrities you are also role models…
ENGELKE: When in doubt, people tend to look at us more than at women who are not in such prominent positions (and who perhaps do things in the background that are many times more important than what we do). I was on the “Wochenshow” when I was very pregnant and then again ten days after giving birth, and it was similar with “Ladykracher”: I simply didn’t want to take a break, I wanted to be allowed to work. I wanted to do it because it makes me happy and I wanted to be a happy mom.
BERBEN: A lot has changed in the way we deal with such decisions. I know it to be different, I was a single mother in the early 1970s.
ENGELKE: When you wanted to film, nobody probably said: Come on, we’ll take care of your child!
BERBEN: No, nobody. Fortunately, there has been and is change – and a different image of women. But as long as we have to address these inequalities, we are still a long way from reaching our goal.
Would you describe yourself as a feminist?
BERBEN: Of course I am a feminist.
What does this mean for you?
BERBEN: I am a woman who fights for female issues, for her self-image, for her self-determination, for her visibility and will never keep quiet about it.
How do you feel about the term, Ms. Engelke?
ENGELKE: I like to be cautious when it comes to this topic, because we could fall into the trap of comfort too quickly: Oh, I’m a feminist, so everything’s fine now. For example, I’m a big fan of “Allyship”, the idea of finding out about marginalized groups and then asking: OK, what can I do for you? I’m privileged and still have free time during the day. So, where is the next demo?
BERBEN: I don’t just define myself by this term, I am many things – a convinced European, a mother, I am political, open, committed…
BELLI: Especially on the Internet, “feminist” is used in a very derogatory way, and people jump into topics like “gender, yes or no?”, even though there are so many more important things that we need to talk about.
“Many things are taken for granted for younger women today because they no longer had to fight for them” – Aminata Belli
Can’t social media also advance the cause of women and equality?
BELLI: The internet has definitely supported feminism, and MeToo alone would not have worked without social media. But it can also destroy a lot of things.
Quite a lot of serious topics today.
BERBEN: That’s because of Anke, but she’s also such a badass. You sit at the table, you laugh, you’re relaxed, then Anke comes along…
ENGELKE: … and the mood immediately drops.
BERBEN: UNPLEASANT. You’re just bringing me down. I’ve always wanted to tell you that. (Everyone laughs)
Finally, how about a positive utopia? We could start a small feminist revolution?
BERBEN: I’m in!
ENGELKE: Iris is the most combative of all of us, she also has the hottest past.
BERBEN: Just because I sometimes moved on the edge of legality?
So, what do you want?
ENGELKE: We should look at all the clichés that you have been dealing with for 70 years: What do we associate with being a woman? Why are women considered hysterical, freaky — and men considered pretty tough?
No matter how a woman behaves, she is always “too”: too slow, too loud, too quiet…
BELLI: And the more often we hear that, the more we think about our impact. Wasted time!
ENGELKE: Why don’t we repurpose these clichés and see them in a positive light? Perhaps we can find something there that we could cultivate, sensitivity for example. I think it would be nice – and important – for everyone, whether man or woman or in between, to bring out the cliché woman in themselves. Just like we sometimes look for the cliché man in ourselves and say: Now I’m going to be really bold, just say what I think and don’t be afraid that this will be interpreted as bitchiness, as calculation or as a calculation.
BERBEN: When you’re as old as I am, you don’t even think about things like that anymore, you just do them.
ENGELKE: Just do it is also a good motto.