In an interview with ntv.de, David Lammy, shadow foreign minister for the opposition Labor party in the British Parliament, warns of the impact that an economically weakened Germany will have on the whole of Europe. Lammy says of Putin: There can be no turning back for this war criminal.
ntv.de: The Russian war of aggression against Ukraine has been going on for several weeks now. In truth, has Vladimir Putin already crossed many “red lines”?
David Lammy: Dropping bombs on maternity hospitals and children’s homes, aiming rockets at civilians, denying humanitarian corridors, breaking ceasefires and preventing people from leaving cities: these are all violations of international law. It is our assessment that war crimes are being committed in Ukraine. It is important to emphasize: Vladimir Putin and many of his generals must be held accountable for the crimes they are about to commit before the International Court of Justice in The Hague.
David Lammy represents the London constituency of Tottenham in the British House of Commons. He is the Labor Party’s shadow foreign minister, which roughly corresponds to the foreign policy spokesman of a German parliamentary group.
(Photo: picture alliance / Photoshot)
There was praise for the cohesion of NATO, but also criticism that attempts are still being made to appease the Russian dictator. Can this strategy be compared to the “appeasement” policy towards Adolf Hitler before World War II?
We’ve seen a lot of determination over the past few weeks. Not only in NATO, but also within the G7 countries. There is significant support from countries like Japan, but also from other states in the international community. The heavy sanctions have limited Putin’s ability to fund his war, and that shouldn’t be underestimated. The ruble has fallen and Putin’s currency reserves have been halved as a result of the sanctions. Putin’s ability to sustain this war and go even further than Ukraine has been severely damaged.
Germany was initially very reluctant to supply arms to Ukraine. Did you expect more managerial responsibility from Olaf Scholz?
I think we’ve seen incredible leadership from Olaf Scholz over the past few weeks. The decision to meet NATO’s two percent target is a significant commitment that will fundamentally change the issue of European security in the near future. It was also absolutely right that Scholz went to Moscow before the war, looked Putin in the eye and asked him if he would invade Ukraine. Overall, we saw decisive action from the Germans and I am impressed by the quick and decisive response.
But are you shocked by how dependent Germany is on Russian energy? We send Putin billions of euros every week for oil and gas…
Let me be clear: I have also visited other countries in Europe, Finland or Sweden for example. My party leader, Keir Starmer, was in Estonia and of course we also spoke to other allies, such as the Italians and the Poles. And the truth is: The dependency on gas is higher in the Baltic States than in Germany, for example…
… that doesn’t make it better, does it?
There is also historical significance in this context. Germany is a large industrial producer. Not only for the German economy, but also for large parts of the global economy. And this history should also be acknowledged. What became absolutely clear to me during my trip to Berlin: there is a desire and willingness in Germany to reduce this dependency. Of course, this will only succeed in stages and not overnight. None of us want unnecessary damage to Europe’s most important economy. There are just so many supply chains that depend to a large extent on the German economy. It is absolutely right that Germany is doubling its efforts to become carbon neutral by 2045. Germany may have to speed this up as well. I think that the UK, which has great expertise in the field of renewable energy, can also support Germany in these endeavors.
A big topic right now: the refugees from Ukraine. Shouldn’t your country, the UK, have to take in more people from Ukraine?
I looked at the situation at Berlin Central Station and saw how many people from Ukraine arrive there. That was a very emotional moment for me. I was very impressed by the efficiency there and also by the dignity and humanity – not only by the federal and state authorities, but also by the many citizens and volunteers. If we look at the UK, the Labor Party is very critical of Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s government. We have unnecessary obstacles in helping people fleeing war. There is unnecessary bureaucracy and ultimately the government is lagging behind the will of the British people. Hundreds of thousands of Brits have offered to take in people from Ukraine, but the government has been unable to organize it.
Is it really just a lack of organization or is Boris Johnson’s government simply unwilling to take in more people?
The majority of these people are women and children – well over 90 percent. I saw that again here in Berlin. I just cannot accept Boris Johnson saying that these people could possibly be spies. There is a very hostile atmosphere that the government has created on the issue of migration. It is very unsavory how this atmosphere has been used against people fleeing conflict. Britain has historically always been a place of refuge. This government is trashing that international reputation.
Is it actually a disadvantage that Britain is no longer in the European Union at such a historic time?
The decision to leave the EU has been made. But Britain should remain anchored at the heart of Europe. While economic relations with the EU have cooled, it is absolutely clear that we must be a key player alongside Germany and France. Especially when it comes to security issues and this new context of Vladimir Putin’s aggression. And here Boris Johnson has recently made a rather lonely figure in Brussels.
In your opinion, will Putin ever return to the diplomatic table as a recognized head of state, or will he go down in history as a war criminal?
This is now an important moment for countries like Germany and the UK. For countries that value democratic standards and liberal ideas. I sit here with you in the land of Bismarck, in the land of Bach. And Britain is the land of Shakespeare, of Dickens. These are noble histories and traditions, and we are at a point where we should recognize very soberly that we must defend these libertarian values. This is not just about aggression against Ukraine, this is about “Putinism”. This is about a man who imprisons his political opponents. This is about a man who sends young men to certain death. And this is about a man destroying beautiful cities like Aleppo and now Mariupol. I see no way back for Vladimir Putin.
Philipp Sandmann spoke to David Lammy