In the election campaign in Warsaw, the right-wing governing party PiS is stirring up anti-Brussels and Berlin sentiment. From a Polish point of view, some resentments have understandable reasons, says Dagmara Jajeśniak-Quast, director of the Center for Interdisciplinary Polish Studies, in an interview with ntv.de. The economic historian teaches at the European University Viadrina in Frankfurt (Oder). On the one hand, she explains the skepticism of the Poles by the traumatic experiences under Hitler’s Germany and the Soviet Union. On the other hand, as the leading nation in the EU, Germany made mistakes before the start of the Ukraine war, according to Jajeśniak-Quast.
ntv.de: At the EU summit, Poland once again made it clear to Hungary that it rejects the EU’s asylum compromise. Warsaw is opposed to the fact that countries that do not participate in the distribution of refugees have to pay a fine of 20,000 euros for each migrant that is not admitted. Can the PiS score points with this attitude in the autumn elections?
Dagmara Jajeśniak-Quast heads the Center for Interdisciplinary Polish Studies at the European University Viadrina.
(Photo: Heide Fest)
Dagmara Jajeśniak-Quast: Migration issues are hotly debated in Polish society. There is a consensus that Polish society would like to be recognized for the achievements it has made in migrating from Ukraine. When it comes to taking in refugees, Poland attaches great importance to cultural proximity and voluntariness. After the start of the war, Polish citizens jumped over the shadows and opened their homes. But they are skeptical when Brussels wants to force something on them, regardless of whether they are close to the ruling party or not. The language and religion of migrants continue to play a role in Polish society, more so among supporters of the ruling party, but also among the opposition.
Why is this cultural closeness of migrants so important for Poles?
That’s where history plays a role. For decades, during the socialist period, Poland was a closed society that had no experience with the foreign. After the Second World War, society was ethnically cleansed to a certain extent, through the war and the murder of the Jewish population, but also through the measures of the Potsdam Agreement [also die Vertreibung von Deutschen, Anm. d. Red.]. In Western European countries, people from different cultures have been living together for a long time. Poland couldn’t. There were no students with a migration background in the schools. You didn’t see any people with different skin colors on the streets and you hardly heard any other languages. Getting used to it takes time. The European Commission is therefore perhaps not well advised to use coercion in migration. Because that is counterproductive, especially in the tough, right-wing PiS election campaign.
Is it the case that this memory of the time under Hitler Germany, then under the Soviet Union, is shaken up a bit by the instructions from Brussels?
Perhaps I wouldn’t relate these two things so directly. Nevertheless, I think that history still plays a big role, not only in the ruling party, but in Poland in general. At the university we discuss questions such as: Was there really a reconciliation between Germany and Poland after the Second World War? It is about what is deeply rooted in people and not about what was superficially done in politics through symbols to get things done. It is about Poland’s enormous victimhood and the enormous loss, both under the German and under the Soviet occupation. You can’t just argue that away.
The PiS is demanding reparations from the federal government for damage caused in the Second World War. During the election campaign, does it construct a German enemy image or is it just picking up on a mood that actually exists among the people?
I wouldn’t say that there is a German enemy in general in Polish society. What does exist, however, is the question of reparations and the question of how destruction and annihilation have been dealt with since the Second World War. But Germany is still a friend in most Polish minds. Cooperation is maintained at various levels, for example between kindergartens, universities and fire brigades. That’s why I don’t think that the PiS will achieve much with a German enemy image.
But the question of reparations worries the Polish population?
The question of reparations is something else. This is not only the demand of the ruling party. At least the opposition parties have not protested. You may have other suggested solutions. Most opposition politicians are aware that financial demands are of little use. But some symbolic inclusion of the discussion in Germany would be good for the mood in Polish society. For example, both countries could set up a foundation together to build a building like this palace in Warsaw, where there are graves of unknown soldiers who died in World War II.
PiS leader Jaroslaw Kaczynski recently returned to the cabinet as Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki’s deputy. What does the party expect from Kaczynski’s return?
Above all, it is hoped that Kaczynski will bring Morawiecki even more under control as far as the party line against the European Commission is concerned. For the opposition, Morawiecki is not a supporter of the commission. But for the PiS, Morawiecki is too liberal when it comes to the dispute with the EU over the independence of the Polish judiciary. Morawiecki says we need EU money to build up the country, so we need to liquidate the disciplinary body that is endangering judges’ independence. Kaczynski didn’t like that because he doesn’t want to compromise with the European Union. As deputy prime minister, he now wants to take care of it, and he also wants to make an impression on potential voters.
Will there be a tough fight between Poland and the EU after the elections if PiS wins and Kaczynski takes a harder line?
If the ruling party wins, it will be a tough, tough fight. However, according to a survey, 90 percent of Poles are in favor of remaining in the European Union. We have a contradiction here. Society and also the governing party basically want to remain in the European Union. However, the government wants to set its own rules. But there is no basis for negotiations because the rules that Poland signed when it joined the EU in 2004 were clear. This vicious cycle will continue if the ruling party wins the October 15 election. I am curious how this can be solved. I don’t see a way out yet.
Does the opposition have a chance of winning the elections in autumn?
I am cautious about the opposition’s possibility of winning the election. Because the opposition does not go into the election as an alliance. On June 4 in Warsaw, half a million people demonstrated for the opposition, but supporters of all parties took to the streets together. It is unwise for the parties to go their separate ways in the election. I also wonder if appointing Donald Tusk as leader of the opposition was wise. He is not as popular as, for example, the mayor of Warsaw, Rafał Trzaskowski. Tusk is portrayed as a “devil” in pro-government media. These images are in the mind.
The PiS wants to get Tusk into trouble with a new law against politicians who are allegedly subject to “Russian influence”. Since Tusk bought Russian gas during his tenure as prime minister, he is said to be excluded from the election. What’s behind it?
If the situation weren’t so serious, this law could be laughed at, since all of Europe has been buying Russian gas. Under the PiS government, for example, hard coal continued to be imported from Russia. Therefore, Kaczynski and his fellow party members should all stand trial. This law is bullshit. It aims to further question Tusk as the face of the election campaign of all parties outside PiS. And any sane person knows that’s bullshit. But there are many people in Poland who think: That’s right. You always need scapegoats. Right now it’s Tusk.
Is Tusk, who after his tenure as Polish Prime Minister then became President of the European Council, also demonized as a friend of the EU Commission?
Yes, as a friend of the European Union and Germany, both are often thought of together in Poland and criticized together because of the proximity to Russia.
What do you mean?
In my view, Germany made mistakes before the Russian war of aggression, for example at the Normandy negotiations, where the issue of the Ukraine conflict after the 2014 invasion of Crimea was negotiated between Russia, Germany, France and Ukraine. Poland was more or less disinvited, at Putin’s urging. The PiS government is right when it criticizes that Poland and the Baltic countries, which have a lot more knowledge than Germany in this regard, were disinvited.
From a Polish point of view, did Germany make many mistakes with its Russia policy before the Ukraine war?
The federal government is aware that many decisions were wrong. Germany has discredited itself when it comes to security policy in Europe, especially when it comes to Ostpolitik and Nord Stream 2. That was always the consensus in Poland, among the opposition and the governing party. Despite warnings about dependence on Russian gas, Germany built Nord Stream 2 because it presented the pipeline as a purely economic project. Everyone knew that it was a political project.
With Dagmara Jajeśniak-Quast spoke to Lea Verstl