On May 15, North Rhine-Westphalia will elect a new state parliament. Prime Minister Wüst from the CDU must fear for his office. His SPD challenger Thomas Kutschaty is tied in polls. In an interview with ntv.de, he says how he intends to win the election.
ntv.de: You want to drive Prime Minister Hendrik Wüst of the CDU out of office. Do you sense a mood of change in the country?
Thomas Kutschaty: I notice that people are very open-minded. They come to us and don’t cross the street when they see an SPD stand. That was different in previous years. The mood is good, and our candidates in the constituencies notice that too. That’s why I’m very optimistic that we’ll overtake the CDU and end up in first place.
In the election campaign, CDU Environment Minister Ursula Heinen-Esser had to resign because she flew to a family celebration in Mallorca shortly after the flood disaster last summer. How much did you care about this “Mallorca gate“ happy?
Not at all, because something like that always casts a shadow over politics as a whole. Unfortunately, if politicians would rather celebrate their birthday on an island than help the population in a difficult situation, this can contribute to the discussions about “the ones up there” coming up again. I do not like that.
But you benefited from it.
Oh, depending on the survey institute, you’re sometimes the dog and sometimes the tree in these discussions. In the end, people will decide on the issues that will be crucial for five years. And who they expect not to duck away, even in crises.
The war in the Ukraine also determines the headlines in North Rhine-Westphalia. Hendrik Wüst also attacked you for taking a position on the subject of weapons. Are you more of Team Michael Roth, who is in favor of the delivery of heavy weapons, or rather Team Rolf Mützenich, who is more skeptical?
We are all in the Olaf Scholz team. Of course, it is not an easy decision to deliver weapons to crisis areas. We haven’t done that for years, for good reason. As the Federal Republic of Germany and Europe, we are faced with a different situation today. The Russian war of aggression must and will fail.
Is it sufficient now heavy weapons like that “cheetah“ to deliver and more weapons by ring exchange?
This is the path we must now take. Our goal must be to get a ceasefire quickly so that more people don’t die. There are two ways to do this: one is the sanctions. On the other hand, you have to give the Ukrainians the help they need to defend. Germany has already supplied weapons for defense and this must be maintained. Putin is paying for this war.
A concrete consequence is that refugees come to Germany and also to NRW. What else do people have to adjust to?
It also depends on how the war spreads. It is important that we are well prepared. Because it is of course a major task for our municipalities to integrate refugees from war zones. The country is also required to do this. Now we have to look, how do we get the children looked after, how do we get them into the schools?
How much do you get on your nerves with Gerhard Schröder and Manuela Schwesig?
Oh, so much has already been said about Gerhard Schröder. He has to decide whether he wants to be a social democrat or a businessman alongside Putin. He obviously chose to be a businessman. In doing so, he opted for Putin, not for social democracy.
Does that hurt you in the election campaign?
No, people don’t talk to me about it. You know my clear position.
Much is said about Ukraine during the election campaign. Are the state issues getting under the wheels?
no Of course, people are concerned about the Ukraine conflict, that’s human in view of the situation. But people can differentiate very finely and know that this is now a state election. And it is about education, housing, work and health.
Let’s talk about the topics. When it comes to schools, the state government says it has created 10,000 jobs and is increasing the budget for education. Isn’t that a good direction?
Yes, but 8,000 of the positions are vacant. A HR department does not teach pupils, only a teacher. NRW is not progressing in the field of education. In terms of education expenditure per pupil, NRW is in last place and brings up the rear.
They want elementary school teachers to have the same pay grade, A13, as high school teachers. How do you get that? Wüst wanted that too, but didn’t make it.
Because he doesn’t have the drive to take the necessary means into his own hands. We have a massive teacher shortage in elementary schools. If you want to make the job more attractive, then you also have to increase the salary. Because the training is now the same for all teachers. That’s why there is absolutely no reason to say that they should earn less. I don’t think it’s any easier to teach six-year-olds to read and write than 17-year-olds to do politics and history.
Would you like to have Interior Minister Herbert Reul in your ranks? Crime is at its lowest level in 40 years, and his policy of pinpricks and raids is a crackdown on organized and clan crime.
Security policy is always a question of continuity. In this respect it is good that Herbert Reul is continuing our programs of the red-green state government to combat burglary, right-wing extremism and Salafism. In the same way, as Prime Minister, I will ensure that we continue the fight against organized crime – but then also against the bosses and not just against the messengers.
When it comes to renewable energies, you say that NRW is falling behind, but Prime Minister Wüst says that NRW is back in the top group.
Yes, if you only compare yourself with Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, then that’s no wonder. But when he boasts that he built 26 wind turbines in the first quarter, that’s far too little. We have to build at least 200 wind turbines with five megawatts per year in order to be able to achieve our climate protection goals. In 2017 alone, more wind turbines were built in NRW under red-green than in the three years that followed.
But what does the country look like then? Does that mean you see wind turbines everywhere as soon as you leave a city?
no We need 200 new wind turbines every year, but that doesn’t mean they’re in front yards or across the street. But we’re having trouble finding the planes. They are restricted by the stubborn distance rule that the wind turbines must be 1000 meters away from residential buildings. We have to be more flexible there. There are federal regulations that require the distance to be three times the height of the windmill. With a 200 meter high wind turbine, that would be a distance of 600 meters.
And is that enough to manage the 200 wind turbines per year?
Yes. But above all with local commitment. It is also a question of acceptance whether the profits from a wind turbine go to a public company in my hometown of Essen…
… you mean RWE, …
… or the local citizens benefit from it. That’s why it’s also a great opportunity for municipal utilities or cooperatives to say: We now produce our own electricity. When I see that the money stays with me and I can supply my place with electricity independently, then acceptance increases.
You put pressure on renewables, but still set conditions for the coal phase-out in 2030. How does that fit together?
I would like to see the politician who closes the lignite power plants and at the same time stops the production of medicines at Bayer in Leverkusen because there is no energy. If it works the other way around in 2029, I’ll be there too. I am interested in the exact way to get there.
But that keeps a back door open.
no We always talk about exit. We finally have to talk about getting started. into renewable energies.
We got in a long time ago.
But at what snail’s pace here in North Rhine-Westphalia? 2030 is also my goal. I helped negotiate the coalition agreement in Berlin. But I think we need to redefine “ideally”. We’ve always assumed that we produce wind power and photovoltaics and if that’s not enough, we’ll use gas as a reserve and as a bridging technology. The starting position has changed with Putin’s brutal war of aggression. For me, the consequence is not to forgo the lignite phase-out or to let the nuclear reactors run longer. We now have to build up even more wind power in order to have surpluses to be able to turn it into green hydrogen. We not only need electricity, but also heat for heating and in industry for blast furnaces.
They will probably have to form a coalition of three. What you just said will certainly go down well with the Greens. What makes you optimistic about being able to get the FDP on board?
What makes you so pessimistic?
Survey.
In the penultimate survey, red-green had a majority.
In the last black-green had the majority.
It’s all very close together, we can agree on that. Red-green or traffic lights are absolutely possible. I worked with the colleagues from the FDP on the federal coalition agreement in the working group “Modern State / Planning and Approval Acceleration”. We very quickly came to an agreement with the FDP and worked well and trustingly together.
But do you prefer red and green? Does the federal traffic light scare you off?
No, on the contrary. I like that.
In the past few months, it has seemed that there is always someone against it. The FDP on compulsory vaccination. The SPD delivering heavy weapons.
The SPD is not against the arms deliveries. There is a clear Bundestag resolution on arms deliveries among the democratic parties, so that’s not true. I agree with you when it comes to compulsory vaccination, the FDP slowed things down more than was necessary. I don’t talk about it either.
As an SPD man from Essen from a railway family, you are a native of the Ruhr area with heart and soul. But in NRW there is still East Westphalia, the Münsterland and other rural areas. What if the people there say: Kuchaty only does politics for the Ruhr area?
Then that’s not true. Recently I was out and about in East Westphalia-Lippe for three days at a time and got very involved with local public transport in rural areas. When we talk about hospital closures, it’s mostly a rural issue. I will make sure that no more hospitals are closed. These are exactly the issues for rural areas and I am committed to them.
We meet in Wuppertal, the hometown of the former Prime Minister Johannes Rau. His motto was “Reconciliation instead of division”. Is that still possible today?
Yes, and today we have to reconcile even more than before. For example in the children and youth sector. There used to be more togetherness, people from different social classes came together, and that was reconciliation. Today it’s much, much more divided. That worries me and we must not let that continue. I want more people’s hopes to come true again.
Volker Petersen spoke to Thomas Kutschaty