Whether on the street or in the bar: sexism is still far too often our everyday life. We spoke to Germany’s best-known gender expert, the sociologist Paula-Irene Villa Braslavsky, about how that could change.
BRIGITTE: Prof. Dr. Villa Braslavsky, did you also ask yourself after the Rammstein scandal: Are we still not further along?
VILLA BRASLAVSKY: No I haven’t. If, as recently, there is a lot of talk about sexism, assaults and inappropriate sexualizations, in my opinion this rather suggests that the attention directed to such incidents is definitely changing, also through #MeToo: from an open but very well-guarded secret, a “that’s just the way it is” becomes a “that’s not okay”.
That sounds like good news.
But I also share some frustration, because so much comes to light that shows how naturally femininity is still associated with being endangered and in need of protection: Watch your drink, don’t choose the heels too high, not the neckline too deep …
And if something happens, they immediately say: “Shouldn’t she wear something so short!”
No matter what clothes they wear, it must always be possible for every person to say: No, I don’t want that, I don’t want that anymore, I don’t want that like this. No clothing, no body justifies violence, assault, humiliation.
You are the mother of a 16-year-old daughter, have you spoken to her about Row Zero?
With her and with her classmates, I was recently a guest at her school – actually on a different topic. But then it was a huge issue. These young women couldn’t understand at all that concerts weren’t canceled and that despite everything, female fans continued to wear band T-shirts. They found it really bad, they were extremely outraged.
Rightly so, right?
Nevertheless, I wonder whether they see their own reality comprehensively out of sheer conviction.
What do you mean?
Whether they would recognize, condemn and not engage in other forms of sexism and sexual assault in their everyday lives if they were involved. Their outrage had a strong index finger, it was “them there”.
What shapes are you thinking of?
By that I mean all those shades and nuances between flirting, hitting on, having sex of all kinds… It’s a huge gray area. And at the end there is, for example, “Whoa, I don’t remember exactly what happened then, I drank too much…” Because on the one hand, it’s all about trying something out, getting involved with something and constantly exploring limits – what makes it so special makes it difficult to recognize and mark out one’s own limits as such. And on the other hand, there is the demand to always know exactly beforehand and to be sovereign.
Why are we having such a hard time with this?
It’s about taking my needs – what do I want, what do I feel like doing – at least as seriously as those of the other person, and by that I mean men in particular. However, a young woman still grows up structurally with the message: HIS needs are more important than mine.
And if I don’t satisfy them, I’m considered uptight or wrong. Why do these role models continue to have such a strong impact?
That’s the $30 million question. Historically, for a long time, being a woman also meant being a “trophy of”. It is true that marriage markets have changed significantly, but women and people read as female are still rated strongly according to whether they would be this good trophy – for men who are particularly “male”, i.e. ambitious and successful, financially strong, publicly present …
But what is considered female has changed over time.
Sure, and interestingly enough, women today behave almost hypermasculine – not only, but also in nightlife: going out to excess, drinking, bullying, fighting, throwing up, fucking. Motto: I take what I can. At first glance, this seems very free, very self-determined, but has a fatal downside: A “No, I don’t feel like doing that now” unfortunately doesn’t fit into the picture at all – just like with the men.
It’s hard to get out of this role.
In addition, female physicality and sexuality in our society are unfortunately very much associated with shame and dirt. Education, for example, is almost always associated with fear: fear of pregnancy, fear of violence, fear of being assaulted…
Don’t recent incidents show that this fear is justified?
I think it’s the wrong way to say: we have to protect these poor young women, they are so weak. No, we must empower them! Show and assure them that sexuality can be playful, pleasurable and self-confident. That your own needs count. But we have talked far too little about boys and men until now.
Why?
It shouldn’t be primarily the task of us mothers, sisters, daughters, aunts or girlfriends to see how we can best navigate our everyday life and nightlife. Thinking about what codes to say at the counter to get safely into a cab home. Or learning how to spot knockout drops in a drink. Whether Row Zero, #MeToo at the universities or catcalling on the street:One in three women has experienced some form of sexualized violence and assault. It’s men and boys who behave wrongly, who are responsible – and who have to rethink. This is exactly what we should constantly confront them with.
Do you do that with your 22-year-old son?
It actually starts with our sons. We can say to them: No, you don’t have to be the great stallion, nor the cool checker who always knows where to go. You don’t have to do anything. Except making sure that what you do works for everyone involved at all times. And if you are unsure whether it fits, you can and should ask: Hey, everything okay?
That would take a lot of responsibility away from women.
And relieve the boys of the pressure and stress, while at the same time taking their responsibilities seriously. Because they too believe that they have to conform to certain norms, that they have to be strong and tough. They, too, go beyond their limits – and those of others. Much would be gained if we understood that we can only pacify the public war zone together. And that the men have to contribute much more than before.
However, there still seems to be a long way to go before this peace is reached.
I think we often look for a solution too quickly. Because we want to spare our daughters what we may have experienced ourselves – but we overlook the fact that each generation has to have its own discussions. And when I see how lively this is happening online, for example, among digital activists, I think it’s great. If we really listen to those voices that are speaking, and engage with the diversity of their perspectives, we could all learn a lot. Maybe we don’t need to find a quick fix at all. But we must want to look for them: together.
Join our BRIGITTE campaign #wasmachtmacht: Did you have to experience abuse of power – or did you witness it? Then tell us about it at gettotext.de/macht