That looks like genocide to me

Vera Jourova is Vice-President of the EU Commission and responsible for human rights and the rule of law in Brussels. The Czech is considered open and humorous, but also tough on the matter. In an interview in 2020, she accused Viktor Orban of building a “sick democracy” – whereupon he demanded her resignation.

On Monday, the 57-year-old will officially visit Switzerland for the first time. Jourova wants to meet the UN Commissioner for Human Rights Michelle Bachelet and the Federal Councilors Ignazio Cassis and Karin Keller-Sutter to talk about the war crimes in Ukraine and the international sanctions against Russia.

Mrs. Jourova, is Vladimir Putin a war criminal?

Vladimir Putin is an aggressor. We know his army killed countless civilians. We know that the Kremlin wants to destroy the Ukrainian nation. Five million people are already fleeing. Anyone who is not killed should be “re-educated”, should become a Russian. It looks like genocide to me. But it’s not my job to judge that. An independent court must decide whether Putin is a war criminal in the legal sense. I really hope that one day he will be put on trial.

How will the EU support Ukraine to ensure war crimes do not go unpunished?

The Ukrainian Prosecutor General Irina Venediktova asked us to support the investigation into the matter. We’re putting together teams of forensic experts right now. We want to join forces to bring those responsible for the terrible crimes before the International Court of Justice in The Hague. I welcome the fact that Switzerland has also started investigating war crimes. It makes sense for the Swiss authorities to collect the testimonies of the refugees. This can be valuable information for the processes that will hopefully begin soon.

Your country was the first in the EU to supply old stock tanks to Ukraine. Does that have to do with the special memories in the Czech Republic of the Soviet occupation?

Probably yes. The suppression of the Prague Spring in 1968 is a very formative memory for the Czechs. I remember myself how it was when Russian tanks rolled down our streets. I was with my grandmother at the time, I felt her tension. There’s that feeling under your skin that you can’t get rid of. When we see Putin’s aggression today, we also remember our own history.

And from that you derive an obligation to help Ukraine?

Yes. I’m sorry to say, but we’ve seen what happens when nobody comes to your rescue. I think of 1938 when Hitler was blackmailing Europe and we had to cede part of the country. After that there was a dirty peace. The appeasement to Nazi Germany did not pay off. In Prague, therefore, President Zelensky’s appeal to help not only with words but also with deeds, especially with weapons, is taken very seriously. By the way, we are not only doing this for the sake of Kyiv. When Putin talks about Russia’s sphere of influence, he means not only Ukraine, Moldova and Georgia, but all former Soviet satellites, including former Czechoslovakia, Poland and other states.

Are the Europeans doing enough to put pressure on Putin?

I think we could do more. I admire how quickly and decisively we have acted so far. But we should seriously consider the import ban on Russian oil and gas. It cannot be that we are sanctioning Russia with the right hand and supplying foreign currency with the left hand so that Putin can finance a war.

When can we expect an energy embargo?

We are currently working on a sixth package of sanctions. However, the fact is that before any sanctions are imposed, we have to check the willingness of the member states to support the measures. The starting position, especially when it comes to gas, is not easy. A total gas embargo could trigger a serious energy crisis in several states. It is unfortunate that we have become so dependent on Russia in the past. We must free ourselves from this dependency as quickly as possible.

President Volodymyr Zelenskiy has just filled out the questionnaire for EU membership after Commission President Ursula von der Leyen had high hopes for him. Do you see Ukraine as a future member?

It’s only been two weeks since President Zelensky was handed the questionnaire. It must now be examined whether Ukraine could in fact be granted candidate country status in the course of the next few months. The accession process is defined in the EU treaties and is very demanding for every country. It is no different with the countries of the Western Balkans, which we also want to give accession prospects to.

Before the war, the EU did not give Ukraine a good record.

Of course, there are challenges, for example in the judiciary and in the state’s ability to fight corruption. But today that falls behind the war. Russia’s attack has destroyed the livelihoods of millions. When the war is over, we will support the Ukrainians in the reconstruction of the country and in the accession efforts.

There is also a dispute about the rule of law in the EU – most violently with Hungary and Poland. On the other hand, Poland is currently doing a lot for the refugees. Some argue that the Commission should therefore be lenient with Warsaw.

These are two parallel tracks. We support Poland in everything the country is doing in connection with Russian aggression and its consequences. The country has taken in two million refugees. At the same time, we insist that the principles of the rule of law are respected throughout the EU. There must also be an independent judiciary in Poland, and the judges should be able to apply European law without fear of punishment.

Is there progress in the negotiations with Poland?

We still see a whole range of problems and have therefore intensified the negotiations. For example, we want to clarify how the problem of disciplinary procedures, which has a negative impact on the independence of judges, can be solved. And we want to know how to understand the decision of the Polish Constitutional Court, which suspended several articles of the EU treaties. This is serious business.

Why?

There are two sacred rules on which European architecture is based. Firstly, EU law takes precedence within its competence. Secondly, the European Court of Justice has the final say in its interpretation. All member states have signed this and must adhere to these rules.

The Commission has also been at odds with Hungary for years. Have you already sent the letter that will trigger the new rule of law mechanism and could collect EU funds?

no We’ll decide that shortly. The letter contains questions that Hungary must answer within two months. It is about the way in which the country investigates and prosecutes crimes such as subsidy fraud, conflicts of interest or corruption. The procedure aims to better protect EU funds and has strong support from taxpayers in European countries.

During your visit to Geneva and Bern you will also meet Foreign Minister Cassis. According to him, Switzerland is “among the best” in the world when it comes to international sanctions against Russia. Do you share his assessment?

It is very important that Switzerland joins our sanctions. We are grateful for that. And I hope that Bern will also go along with the further tightening. No one can be neutral in the face of Russia’s atrocities in Ukraine. But as I hear, the decision was not easy because there is a debate about neutrality in Switzerland. Military neutrality is something everyone understands. But I’m also interested in how Switzerland defines the concept of neutrality under the new conditions.

EU countries like Austria are also militarily neutral.

Austria is trying to become a kind of bridge for negotiations. This was also reflected in the Austrian Federal Chancellor’s trip to Russia. However, we have some doubts about this trip and its results.

Switzerland and the European Union have been struggling to further develop their relationship for years. How have the Federal Council’s latest ideas on this been received in Brussels?

The representatives of both sides met at the end of March for important exploratory talks. Our goal was to better understand the announcements made by the Federal Council at the end of February and to find out more details. We have therefore asked questions and highlighted the EU’s priorities.

What do you expect from the next round of talks this week?

Additional clarifications are required from the Swiss side. The first meeting lasted four hours and did not lead to any agreement on the next steps. We hope that the next round of negotiations will bring results.

Switzerland would like to regulate institutional issues in the sectoral agreements. Is the EU ready for this?

I am not one of the negotiators. But the position of the Commission so far has been that we want a horizontal framework and not vertical solutions. I assume it will stay that way.

In mid-May, Switzerland will vote on participation in the EU border protection agency Frontex. Critics say that the practice of pushbacks, i.e. the pushing back of migrants, should not be co-financed.

Frontex is doing a great job. This was already the case during the 2015 refugee crisis.

You say there are no human rights violations at Frontex?

The allegations must be investigated. What is the evidence that there were violations? Before accusing someone of doing something wrong, we need to collect the evidence and look at the actual situation.

Do you think there is a double standard when it comes to people fleeing Ukraine or the Middle East?

People fleeing war zones must always be treated equally. Different treatment cannot be tolerated. The situation is different with economic migration. It is logical and natural that people want to come to Europe to have a better life here. But we cannot accommodate every one of them.