Ukraine talk at Maischberger
“If anyone is interested in a long war, it’s China”
By Marko Schlichting
03/22/2023, 03:12 am
Could the Chinese President’s visit to Moscow hasten the end of the war in Ukraine? This is a question that the two political professionals Oskar Lafontaine and Roderich Kiesewetter discussed on Tuesday evening on the ARD program Maischberger.
In a few months he will be eighty years old – Oskar Lafontaine. For thirteen years he was prime minister of Saarland, four years chairman of the SPD and three years of the Left Party, of which he was one of the founding members. He has been independent for a year. In the ARD talk show “Maischberger” he meets Roderich Kiesewetter, CDU military expert and Colonel a. D. At Maischberger, the two should comment on the current situation in Ukraine. Anyone expecting a heated argument will be disappointed. Both are calm, exchanging their opinions. This makes the discussion unexpectedly interesting, although – or precisely because – they almost never agree.
This starts with the assessment of the visit of China’s President Xi to Moscow. “I hope that China will influence Moscow to end this war as soon as possible,” says Lafontaine. Kiesewetter, on the other hand, expresses his skepticism: China is entering into a systemic dispute, he says. The long-term goal of the People’s Republic is its unification with Taiwan. The West must show China other ways, he demands.
China and the United States would ultimately decide whether the war in Ukraine ended, says Lafontaine. No, according to Kiesewetter, the Ukrainian people would do that with the support of the West.
“US has no interest in peace”
According to Lafontaine, the war in Ukraine will last a long time. The US is not interested in peace, said US Secretary of Defense Austin, whom Lafontaine calls Secretary of War. Its goal is that Russia can no longer wage war, and that is taking a very long time. “If anyone is interested in a long war, it’s China,” counters Kiesewetter. China’s goal is to occupy Taiwan, and China wants to wear down European countries, which should not be able to respond to such an occupation.
The two also have different views on a possible end to the war in Ukraine. Lafontaine, who was one of the signatories to his wife Sahra Wagenknecht’s peace manifesto, primarily wants Germany to stop delivering fighter jets to Ukraine. That won’t happen either, Kiesewetter objects, because Germany doesn’t have any fighter jets. It is important that Germany prevent a further escalation of the war, says Lafontaine. “By doing so, we are prolonging the war and dying in Ukraine.”
“They want their country back”
“The dying in Ukraine can stop as soon as Putin ends the war,” counters Kiesewetter. For six months Germany refused to supply armored personnel carriers. During this time, Russia showed no willingness to negotiate, but destroyed around 30,000 civilian targets in Ukraine. Germany is now supplying armored personnel carriers and has changed its goals. It used to be said that Russia must not lose the war, but today Defense Minister Boris Pistorius says that Ukraine must win the war. This means restoring the 2013 borders and Crimea must be placed under international surveillance. In addition, a Russian attack on Moldova and the Baltic States must be ruled out.
At the end of the war there must be negotiations, on this point both parties agree. But Lafontaine is certain: “The propaganda that Russia does not want to negotiate is wrong.” Russia is demanding the already occupied areas in Ukraine, but has not made this a condition. Therefore, a ceasefire must be discussed urgently.
The people in Ukraine rejected that, says Kiesewetter. “I was in Ukraine three times, I sat in cellars during Russian shelling. The people there don’t want to be under the Russian yoke. Freedom is much more important to them than a dictated peace or a ceasefire. They want their country back because they know that terrible crimes are being committed where the Russians are occupying it.”