In the pandemic, French President Macron is taking stronger action than is known from German politicians. For example, there is a compulsory vaccination. In the interview, the Sorbonne professor and Germany expert Goudin-Steinmann says what still bothers many French and how they see the situation in Germany.
In Germany, the number of infections is reaching new records every day, in France the situation looks comparatively good. There, President Emmanuel Macron made vaccination compulsory for nursing staff – despite weeks of protests, this came into force two months ago. The exodus of the nursing staff, feared also in France, remained small. In Germany, it would also be possible to have a vaccination. The health minister and the states in the Federal Council could decide together. Nothing has happened in this direction yet, although the majority of the people are in favor of compulsory vaccination for nurses. In an interview with ntv.de, the Sorbonne historian and expert on Franco-German relations, Elisa Goudin-Steinmann, says what bothers many French about Macron’s style of government and how the French view the situation in Germany.
ntv.de: Ms. Goudin-Steinmann, when you look at Germany now, you think: Germans are crazy, why aren’t they introducing compulsory vaccinations for caregivers?
It was also very controversial in France. I know a nurse who was not fundamentally against vaccinations, but she was so angry about the way the government handled this crisis that she said: I’m not going to do it anymore, that’s too much that there should now be a duty as if we were children. It was more of an anti-government reaction than a fear of vaccination. That is relatively common.
That sounds typically French. There were protests that lasted for weeks. Is that representative?
They say: the state doesn’t have to tell me to do this, I don’t want to be treated like a child anymore. In all of his speeches, Emmanuel Macron alludes to Louis Pasteur and science as if the arguments of the opponents of his politics were irrational. He tries to stigmatize those who oppose his policy. It has been really difficult for caregivers who are exhausted and underpaid to feel infantilized. I think that was much less the case in Germany. There was more trust there. Angela Merkel never said in her speeches that the population is outside too much, now I have to take tougher measures. Just as Macron does it all the time, as if it’s the citizens’ fault.
Merkel speaks a lot less than Macron. Does Macron wear himself out or is it not also right for the president to fight to get people vaccinated?
It is, of course, his role to convince the French to get vaccinated. Of course he is also thinking about his re-election, that is completely normal and of course you cannot blame him for that. But we often have the impression that there is no trust. The French will likely try not to respect the rules and go outside way too much. I have this impression and many of my colleagues feel the same way: This impression of being treated like children. And he just says we are the land of Pasteur and science, yes of course we are.
What should he say instead?
Perhaps he could appeal to the civic spirit more. He could say that out of citizenship we should get vaccinated so that we can collectively find a solution. He acts as if the arguments of the opponents are irrational. I think he’s trying to discredit her, that’s his strategy. It would be better to take the opponents seriously and ask what they have to propose as a solution. Then it would show that they have nothing to propose and vaccination is the only way out of the pandemic. I think it would be much better to speak of citizenship than to discredit opponents and not take them seriously. Especially in today’s situation when the nurses in the hospital are very exhausted. I can very well understand that you are reacting irrationally and not being vaccinated.
In defiance?
Yes, almost.
For nurses there has been compulsory vaccination since September. Are there any empirical values as to how this was implemented?
I know an example. The doctor here at the Sorbonne Nouvelle did not want to be vaccinated and has not worked since September. She was suspended and not replaced. There is no longer a doctor for the staff here. There are many such examples. This also explains why there are fewer beds in hospitals today than in March 2020. This could be very problematic for the fifth wave. I know a hospital nearby that has closed ten beds. This is of course also due to the fact that some nurses have stopped working in the last few weeks even though they were vaccinated, simply because they were completely exhausted and there was no improvement in the situation in sight. That’s dramatic.
In Germany there is always the fear that one does not want to divide society. Does that also exist in France?
Yes, in any case. Macron divides anyway, that’s his personality. He is not so much about consensus and dialogue as he makes decisions and acts and when there are divisions, he doesn’t care enough about it. But that’s the problem. The people who do not get vaccinated are also the poorer people in the banlieues, here for example in the Paris area, because they are not informed enough, because they have the impression that he does not care about them. That he always acts, but never really tries to get into conversation with the French or to understand them and then to inform and convince them.
What do the people who oppose the vaccination say? Health concerns are often cited in Germany.
There is that in France too, but I don’t think they play a decisive role. It is more a response to the lack of dialogue and the fact that caregivers are still so underpaid. This is a problem for many. Macron has also abolished the tax on the wealthy, and nurses say there is now no more money for the hospitals. They react to this and say: Without me, now I will no longer take part. You won’t get vaccinated. Even if it’s dangerous.
Exactly, you expose yourself to great danger.
Yes, and so do the others. I find the situation very serious as far as this split is concerned. This is not new at all, we already had that with Sarkozy. I think that is much less the case with Angela Merkel. She changed her mind many times, Macron almost never did that. He always wants to convey the picture: I am the one who acts, who makes decisions, I show the way.
We find that very exciting at the moment, because hardly anyone seems to be doing it anymore.
This has advantages and disadvantages! As for Germany, it is also due to the fact that everyone is waiting for the new government, while in France the election campaign has already started. For this reason, Macron has to prove that it is indispensable.
How is the high incidence in Germany perceived in France?
That’s a big surprise. Germany has always been the country that has overcome the health crisis better than the others. It was thought: they know better what to do and all the French media tried to explain this success. For example, it was often said that this was due to the fact that, unlike France, Germany is a federal state. In any case, the Federal Republic was a role model. Now it is said: If even the Germans don’t know what to do, that shows that there isn’t one strategy that definitely works. It looks better in France, but there is much less testing. As you test more, the numbers automatically increase too. But it’s still true: the situation is a little better. But I’m afraid it will worsen here in the coming weeks as well.
Why?
Because there are far fewer beds in hospitals than in March 2020. Some nurses stopped because they were exhausted. Or they were suspended because they weren’t vaccinated. That means there are even fewer caregivers. This affects less the doctors than the nurses, especially in the intensive care units. There the carers are exhausted and still underpaid. The government did nothing to prevent that.
Do you also see cultural differences in dealing with the Corona crisis?
Perhaps in general, how to deal with rules in France. You accept the authority, but then you still try not to obey the rules completely. That is typically French. While in Germany you are against the authority, but stick to the rules. You can already see that at school. When the teacher asks, we accept the authority, but still try to do it a little differently. That sounds very paradoxical. You might think that if everyone else gets vaccinated, I can benefit from it and not get vaccinated. For me that is also very French. Not all are like that, of course I have been vaccinated myself. But I have often noticed this contrast between authority and rules.
Volker Petersen spoke to Elisa Goudin-Steinmann