Democracy is a system that can be destroyed in two ways, says Israeli historian Tom Segev in an interview with ntv.de, “either from below, for example through a coup, or from above, as is happening in Israel now.” He sees the dispute over judicial reform in Israel as a struggle over fundamental values.
ntv.de: Due to the judicial reform proposed by the new government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel has been experiencing unprecedented mass demonstrations for weeks. Is this a turning point for Israel?
Tom Segev: Israeli democracy has never been in such great danger. There have always been racist elements in Israeli politics, but never before has there been such a radical right-wing group in parliament, on which the government is so dependent. It’s a dangerous time.
Tom Segev was born in Jerusalem in 1945 to parents who fled Germany in 1933. He is one of Israel’s most renowned historians and journalists.
(Photo: private)
At the same time there are massive protests.
They have never been so strong and extensive. There have often been demonstrations in Israel that took to the streets for this or that – like in the 1950s against relations with Germany or after the Yom Kippur War in 1973. But never before were so many people scared as they are now and this is the case partly because Israel is also experiencing a struggle between the social and political elite.
What do you mean?
The protests are being led in part by people who grew up traumatized by discrimination, mostly Jews who came from Arab countries. This feeling that they have no part in what is happening in Israel has been passed down through the generations and now they are on the verge of trying to change the ruling elites. So it is also a battle of core values.
Even when Menachem Begin and the Likud came to power in 1977, it was said that democracy was in danger. How divided is Israel?
At Begin, people were wrong. But now society is deeply divided. Not only between left and right, but also between religious and secular, Jews and Arabs. Israeli democracy has worked for the past 75 years, even if, like in many countries, it has become more fragile. However, the biggest wars, in 1967 and 1973, each broke out under very weak governments. We have a similar scenario now.
In many countries there is a debate about the power of the judiciary, in Hungary, Poland or Turkey. Do you see the government of any of these countries as a role model?
The situation in these countries is very different. Netanyahu is not an ideological racist and actually an advocate of liberal democracy like in the US. He is also not the all-powerful man like in other states. In order to govern, he is dependent on the national-religious right-wing extremist parties. But it would certainly be much easier in Israeli politics without him.
The new government wants to weaken the judiciary, which would also be good for the Prime Minister, who is suspected of corruption. Is this the first step to abolish democracy?
Netanyahu wants to defend himself against the judiciary, which he probably hates, by any means necessary. Democracy, however, does not function without an independent judiciary, and this is indeed quite strong in Israel. Maybe there are reasons to reform it, but not in the way the current government wants to push through in parliament, so that at the same time it becomes more and more powerful and the supreme court has nothing more to say. This is a mistake and a great danger.
Are there signs of a compromise?
The demonstrations may have an effect. Pressure from abroad, especially from the US, could also be crucial. The Israeli government is sensitive to that, especially Netanyahu. In Germany, too, there is a debate about democracy in the Jewish state, which I see positively. This is particularly interesting because, in my opinion, it is an internal German discussion about one’s own basic values.
Is Israel turning into a theocracy?
A divided society can also sometimes be beneficial. The nationwide mass demonstrations prove that there is still a democratic part. In general, however, the Jewish state has shifted to the right in recent years. This is also shown by surveys of Israeli youth, such as those regularly conducted by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation, among others. One is right-wing, but also has a strong democratic feeling. This is where these things go together.
What would judicial reform in Israel mean for minorities like Arabs, Druze and others?
In Israel, the Supreme Court protects democracy. This authority is not perfect because it hasn’t really represented the oriental-Jewish, orthodox-Jewish or Arab population for years. But now the bubble has burst and core values are in jeopardy. For the minorities in Israel, this could pose a long-term threat. For example, the government could decide that Israeli Arabs can no longer vote, it could ban women from going out in public with shorts, or it could ban hotels from renting rooms to people from the LGBTQ communities.
Israel as a dictatorship? What consequences would that have for Israel’s image in the world?
In many areas Israel is dependent on the international community, so it is important that pressure comes from outside. But in the occupied territories there is already a dictatorship and since 1967 there has been systematic oppression of the Palestinians, who often respond with bloody terrorist attacks. And for over 50 years the world has done little to counteract it, although there has always been hope that the occupation will be temporary pending a successful peace process.
But isn’t Israel a constitutional state, in which people have basic rights that the state has to protect?
The State of Israel does not yet have a final constitution. Instead, there is a series of so-called basic laws.
Why doesn’t Israel have a constitution?
Its declaration of independence promises a constitution with a precise date, just a few months after the founding of the state. David Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister, recognized even then that society was too divided to agree on the core values necessary for a constitution. By this he meant in particular the orthodox population, who see the basic law in religion and do not recognize a constitution that has been made secular. Even today, many of them are reluctant to recognize man-made Israel. Even if they sometimes act as his ministers.
Could there be a coup or even civil war?
It’s hard to imagine, but you can’t rule it out. Democracy is a system that can be destroyed in two ways: either from below, for example through a coup, or from above, as is happening in Israel now.
With a society so divided and a government so weak, could Israel’s enemies like Iran and its cronies see an opportunity?
In Iran and Lebanon there is constant talk of Israel’s demise and that now – as prophesied – everything is falling apart. But all this is difficult to assess. Many high-ranking Israeli reserve officers are already refusing to serve in protest at the impending judicial reform. I can’t imagine that they would stand idly by even when war broke out. But it’s certainly scary new terminology.
In your most recent book “Jerusalem corner Berlin: memories” you write that your parents didn’t really belong. Do you still feel part of Israeli society?
The book describes what I love and don’t love about Israel. Unfortunately, I like this state less and less. Of course, my family lives here, but the whole situation and the imminent beginning of a new dark epoch in this country make me very unhappy. I hope that the demonstrations and the public pressure from outside will persuade the government to give in. For Israel must be saved from itself.
Tal Leder spoke to Tom Segev