They have spoken on the phone more than twenty times in the past six months. But what do Emmanuel Macron and Vladimir Putin say on the phone? Excerpts of a conversation shortly before the Russian invasion of Ukraine have now become public.
Guy Lagache actually wanted to document the scenes of the French EU Council Presidency, which is coming to an end these days. But in recent months the 56-year-old journalist has unexpectedly witnessed a much more exciting dossier: the Ukraine crisis.
The Élysée Palace not only allowed Lagache to attend meetings between the French President and his diplomatic advisers. The journalist traveled to Moscow and Ukraine. And he witnessed talks between Emmanuel Macron and Vladimir Putin, and between Macron and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. As a rule, their content only gets out in the cryptic words of the presidential advisers. But now they form the core of an almost three-hour TV documentary that will be broadcast on Thursday evening by the France 2 channel.
“I don’t know where your lawyer learned the law”
Ahead are in the media some snippets of the article “Un président, l’Europe et la Guerre” have been published. They show an emotional exchange between Macron and Zelensky about the war and excerpts from a phone call between Macron and Putin on February 20, just four days before the invasion of Ukraine. Macron had been in Moscow and Kyiv two weeks earlier and tried to mediate.
Concerned about the tense situation on the line of contact, he first asked Putin to describe the current situation and to disclose his intentions. The Russian President replies: «What can I say? You can see what’s happening for yourself.” Macron and Scholz had told him that Zelenski was ready to make a gesture and was preparing a law that would enable the Minsk Agreement to be implemented. “But Zelensky does nothing,” Putin continues. The day before he had said that Ukraine had to get nuclear weapons. “He’s lying to you.”
“No, such nonsense!” Macron’s diplomatic advisor, Emmanuel Bonne, can be heard shouting in the background.
Putin also insinuates that Macron wants to revise the Minsk agreement, which the Frenchman vehemently denies. The Russian insists that the government in Kyiv is illegitimate and responsible for the “bloodbath” in Donbass.
The tone of the conversation remains polite, but the words are still tense: “I don’t know where your lawyer learned the law, but I’m just looking at the texts (of the Minsk Agreement) and trying to apply them!” Says about Macron. Putin, on the other hand, increasingly begins his answers with an annoyed “Listen to me carefully”.
The Frenchman tries in vain to wring specific promises from Putin. For example, Macron proposes to demand from Zelenskiy that the separatists should also take part in the talks on the Minsk agreement. Putin’s answer: “One should have put pressure on the Ukrainians from the start, but nobody wanted that.” Macron replies: “Yes, you know very well that I’m doing the maximum for it.” “Yes, but unfortunately it wasn’t effective,” replies Putin.
Greetings from the gym
In the end, Macron tries to persuade Putin to meet again with American President Joe Biden in Geneva. Although Putin is not very enthusiastic, he finally agrees in principle. Macron wants to pin him down and suggests publishing a communiqué immediately after the end of the conversation. “To be honest, I was about to go play ice hockey,” Putin replies. He’s already in the gym. But he will call his advisers first.
“We keep in touch. As soon as there is something, you call me, »says Macron at the end. “Thank you, Mr. President,” Putin replies in French. Four days later he orders the invasion of Ukraine. The meeting between Biden and Putin that the Élysée Palace promised after the phone call never took place.
Despite his obviously futile efforts, Macron has not let the thread of talks with Moscow break. According to the Élysée Palace, the two presidents have exchanged views 21 times since December last year. “I thought you could find a way with Putin through trust, through intellectual discussion,” says Macron in the documentation. But the contact has diminished. With the atrocities committed by the Russian army, including in Bucha, a limit had been crossed.