Kiesewetter in an interview
“Moscow wants to deter Scholz – that has already worked”
March 2, 2024, 8:00 a.m
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CDU defense expert Roderich Kiesewetter is not surprised that Russia is wiretapping Bundeswehr officers. “We have to assume that the Russians have more material of this kind,” he tells ntv.de. Russia is collecting incriminating material in order to have the potential to blackmail decision-makers in the West.
ntv.de: What is your assessment of the interception recording published by the Russian state broadcaster?
Roderich Kiesewetter: Espionage is part of Russia’s hybrid warfare toolkit, so it is in no way surprising that such a conversation was intercepted. It is also not surprising that the recording becomes public. We have to assume that the Russians have more material of this kind.
Why now? To distract from Alexei Navalny’s funeral?
That’s possible, but I think another explanation is much more likely. With the leak, Russia wants to prevent Germany from finally supplying Ukraine with the Taurus cruise missiles that it so urgently needs. Chancellor Scholz has just made it clear that he intends to continue blocking the Taurus delivery – but has used blatant false information that is now putting him under pressure.
Scholz had suggested that the Bundeswehr would have to be involved in target control and the “accompaniment of target control”, which experts have rejected. Security expert Gustav Gressel, for example, said that no German soldiers were needed on Ukrainian soil to hand over Taurus to Ukraine, nor for programming and introducing the system; that was the responsibility of the manufacturer.
That’s the way it is. Bundeswehr soldiers are not needed to deliver the Taurus to Ukraine or to make it operational there. There are no technical or legal reasons that speak against delivery of the Taurus. But from the Russian perspective, the Chancellor’s deliberately false reasoning may have made delivery of the Taurus more likely. They now want to prevent this by assuming that Germany is involved in the target planning. At the same time, the publication of the recording is intended to have a deterrent effect on the Chancellor. This has already worked in the past.
Can you give examples?
Why did the Federal Chancellor, when asked in the summer of 2022, describe the possible delivery of Marder armored personnel carriers as a “terrible escalation”? Why was there a so-called planning ban for the Bundeswehr and industry for the provision of Leopard battle tanks in 2022? Why did the Chancellor draw a “red line” on the delivery of fighter jets in January?
Assuming the recording is authentic. Would it be strange that Bundeswehr officers were talking about destroying the bridge between Crimea and mainland Russia?
The Kerch Bridge has been mentioned in public discussion for months as a potential target for Taurus cruise missiles, and there have already been several Ukrainian attempts to destroy the bridge – for example in October 2022 or summer 2023. For Ukraine, that would be destruction The bridge would be a great success because it would cut off an important supply route for Russia to the front in southern Ukraine. So it is simply logical that Bundeswehr officers also talk about the Kerch Bridge in a conversation about the Taurus. By the way, the Taurus would actually be ideal for destroying the bridge.
But of course Russia wants it to appear that Germany is already planning a specific operation. Anything that makes Germany look like an active war party is likely to deter Scholz.
That would mean that the officers were not bugged to collect information, but to expose Germany?
It’s both. Russia’s primary objective in espionage is, of course, to obtain information about military capacities and capabilities, including information about planned and possible support for Ukraine. But Russia also generally collects incriminating material in order to have the potential to blackmail decision-makers in the West. In the case of the war against Ukraine, this material can then be used to prevent arms deliveries to Ukraine, to put pressure on decision-makers or to manipulate public opinion. The case of former Wirecard boss Marsalek shows how extensive Russian secret service operations have become.
Scholz wants to give the impression that his main concern is keeping Germany out of the war. Where’s the problem?
From the Russian perspective, we have long been a party to the war, and also the target of the war, namely the target of Russia’s hybrid warfare. Doing what Russia wants in this situation is completely the wrong approach. If Russia is not stopped in Ukraine, the security of Germany and Europe will be even more at risk than it is today. If Ukraine loses, we lose too. The Chancellor’s constant hesitation regarding arms deliveries endangers German and European security.
Hubertus Volmer spoke to Roderich Kiesewetter